Phillip Toner is a political economist and has worked in government, universities and industry focussing on industry policy, labour markets and technical innovation. He has published in leading journals and worked extensively in consulting to entities such as the OECD, ILO and European Union. He is an Honorary Senior Research Fellow in the Department of Political Economy, University of Sydney.

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Congratulations on the publication of your book, Captured: How neoliberalism transformed the Australian state. When and how did this project begin?Ìý

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M&P: The book came about over a few years of dialogue about the problems with political and economic debate in Australia and elsewhere. The first is the overuse of the term ‘neoliberalism’ to describe everything we don’t like about contemporary capitalism. We thought that if we want to understand the epoch we are living through, there is a need to move beyond generalisations and outrage. The book assembles leading scholars in areas of policy analysis to build critical essays on specific neoliberal public policy initiatives in Australia, how they have been implemented and sustained, and their consequences.Ìý

The second motivation for the book is that neoliberalism is often presented mainly as an ideology – a set of ideas and general orientations that are anti-statist andÌý supportive of markets and competition – but not as a practice conducted in and through the state. It was only as a state project that neoliberalism was able to implement its radical vision for a different sort of capitalism. The book’s premise is that if we want to challenge neoliberalism, we need to understand how it is actually practiced. The essays in the book move beyond neoliberalism as an idea, so we get to see how neoliberal governance occurs in Australia.Ìý

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In Captured, you note that neoliberalism arose out of a series of ‘economic, political and social crises’ four decades ago. What were some of these crises?ÌýÌý

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M&P:ÌýWhile neoliberalism only gained substantial political traction in Australia in the 1980s, international economic and political crises were building from the late 1960s and early 70s. There was increasing unemployment and inflation (starting with the oil price shocks in the 1970s) and falling profitability in major industrial countries. This led to political struggles about how to reform capitalism, with the neoliberal project seeking to renounce the post-war social democratic settlement, including by cutting government expenditure, restraining organised labour, and lowering taxes, particularly for the wealthiest. While the struggles were often of a general, whole-of-society nature, they also often developed particular focus, including on industrial relations, welfare, health and education reform.Ìý

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This book presents a series of case studies from leading public policy experts. What benefits are there of using case studies to explore and analyse the effects of neoliberalism on our society?Ìý

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M&P:ÌýThis book presents a series of case studies from leading public policy experts. The case studies permit detailed attention on specific areas of reform and the tussles which accompanied the drive to make major changes along neoliberal lines. While neoliberalism is an international project, it turns out that Australia became a test bed for some of neoliberalism’s most important policy ideas, such as user pays, income contingent loans and partial privatisation of the age pension.Ìý

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What are some consequences of neoliberalism that might surprise some readers?Ìý

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M&P:ÌýWe have all experienced the effects of neoliberal public policy in Australia. For instance, we know that privatised utilities jack up prices and operate with impunity from any serious regulation. We also know that the false fiscal crisis argument has been used to restrict access to basic services like education, health care and welfare, all while governments have actively redistributed income and wealth to corporations and the rich. Of course, that is not the way that these neoliberal policy changes have been presented. But as the essays in the book show, the gap between the rationales for and outcomes of neoliberal policy have become so wide that many previous advocates for neoliberal policy have become outspoken critics.Ìý

ÌýOne of the surprising consequences of neoliberalism readers will notice is that its success is as much about denying and excluding alternatives as articulating a coherent and compelling vision of society. After more than three decades of dominating public policy, we can see how many problems and crises that we face, many of which are the direct result of neoliberal policy. But neoliberalism still has an imperialistic reach across public policy and that ability to dominate debate is a major problem to be confronted.Ìý

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The book warns against turning to nihilism or ‘incoherent populism’ in response to the disillusionment caused by neoliberalism. What do you consider the potential outcomes of these political philosophies or world views? What alternatives might you suggest?Ìý

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M&P:ÌýThere are a range of policy alternatives discussed in the case studies, from mild reformism to a complete rejection of neoliberalism’s main premises, particularly the primacy of individualism as the desired basis of human existence, and the blind support for corporate power it has often become.ÌýÌý

Both nihilism and populism feed off neoliberalism, rather than understanding and rejecting its premises. Those philosophies organise discontent in ways that channel anger and alienation mainly as a confusing and often contradictory oppositional current. There is a need to imagine how a wealthy society can re-organise how things work based on the enormous possibilities we now have in our midst.ÌýÌý

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For readers interested in further investigating neoliberalism’s impacts on Australia and the world, what other resources would you recommend?Ìý

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M&P:ÌýSome recent excellent books are: Jessica Whyte’s The Morals of the Market Human Rights and the Rise of Neoliberalism (2019); Nancy MacLean’s Democracy in Chains The Deep History of the Radical Right’s Stealth Plan for America (2017); Mark Blyth’s Austerity: The History of a Dangerous Idea (2013); Clara Mattei’s The Capital Order. How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way to Fascism (2022); and Melinda Cooper’s Family Values: Between Neoliberalism and the New Social Conservatism (2017).Ìý

A great current affairs site that tracks the increasing corporate capture of government in Australia is the Michael West Media site, while think tanks like the Australia Institute also produce some compelling critical analysis. Additionally, the authors we have assembled in this book have all written extensively on aspects of the neoliberal order in Australia and are well worth following.Ìý

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Captured: How neoliberalism transformed the Australian state is available now. Order your copyÌýhere.